French founder of Éditions de Parfums Frédéric Malle (2000) — the first perfume house in modern history to put the perfumer's name on every bottle and treat itself, structurally, as a publisher of perfumer-authors rather than the author itself. Born in Paris in 1962 to a family deeply embedded in both perfumery and cinema: his maternal grandfather, Serge Heftler-Louiche, was Christian Dior's childhood friend, the right-hand of François Coty, and the founder of Parfums Christian Dior; his mother worked at Dior for 47 years; his father ran Lehman Brothers' international division and co-founded a film production company with his brother, the filmmaker Louis Malle. Educated at NYU, Malle worked in advertising before joining the legendary perfumery lab Roure as assistant to Jean Amic, the “guru of the industry,” for six years. After an epiphany walking through the new self-service perfumery on the Champs-Élysées — realising the industry was about to be flattened into mass-market crowd-pleasers — he founded Éditions de Parfums to create a system in which perfumers could be free, with their names on the bottle, and clients who wanted demanding artistic perfume could find them. Acquired by Estée Lauder in 2014; he remains its creative head.
Éditions de Parfums Frédéric Malle(2000)ì íëì€ìž 찜늜ì. âì¡°í¥ì¬ì ìŽëŠì 몚ë 볎í ìì ëª ìí âíë í¥ì ìì¬ì ìµìŽìâ íì°ì€ìŽì, 구조ì ìŒë¡ ìì ì âì ì(author)âê° ìëëŒ âì¡°í¥ì¬-ì ìë€ì ì¶íì(publisher)âë¡ ì ìí ìµìŽì íì°ì€ë€. 1962ë í늬ìì, âí¥ìì ìíâ ì쪜 몚ëì ê¹ìŽ ë¿ëЬëŽëа ê°ë¬žìì íìŽë¬ë€. ìží ìë²ì§ Serge Heftler-Louicheë Christian Diorì ìŽëа ìì ì¹êµ¬ìŽì, François Cotyì ì€ë¥žíìŽììŒë©°, âParfums Christian Diorâì 찜늜ììë€. ìŽëšžëë Diorìì 47ë ì ìŒíë€. ìë²ì§ë Lehman Brothersì êµì ë¶ë¬žì ìŽë멎ì, ëìì ëììž ìíê°ë Louis Malleì íšê» ìí ì ìì¬ë¥Œ ê³µë 찜늜íë€. NYUìì ê³µë¶í ë€ êŽê³ íì¬ìì ìŒíê³ , ìŽí âì ê³ì 구룚(guru)â Jean Amicì ìŽìì€íŽížë¡ì âì ì€ì ìž í¥ì ë©â Roureìì 6ë ì 볎ëë€. ìŽë ë ì¹ì €ëЬì ì ì âì í ìë¹ì€ í¥ì ë§€ì¥âì ë€ë ë€ê°, âì ê³ ì ì²Žê° âë§€ì€ ë§ìŒì í¬ëŒì°ë í늬ì (crowd-pleasers)âë¡ íííëë € íë€âë ì¬ì€ì 깚ë«ë âìíŒíëâ륌 겜íí ë€, âì¡°í¥ì¬ê° ìì ë¡ê² ìêž° ìì ì íííê³ ìêž° ìŽëŠì 볎íì ëš ì± ìì í ì ìë ìì€í â ê·žëŠ¬ê³ ê·žê²ì ìíë ê¹ë€ë¡ìŽ ê³ ê°ë€ìŽ ê·žê²ì ì°Ÿì ì ìë ìì€í âì ë§ë€êž°ë¡ ê²°ì¬íë€. ê·žê²ìŽ Éditions de ParfumsìŽë€. 2014ë Estée Lauderì ìžìëììŒë©°, ê·žë ì¬ì í ê·ž íì°ì€ì âí¬ëЬììŽí°ëž í€ëâë¡ ëšì ìë€.
Frédéric Malle — founder of Éditions de Parfums Frédéric Malle and the first person to put the perfumer's name on every bottle — sits with Dan Rubinstein of The Grand Tourist for one of the clearest accounts in the Library of why the industry needed restructuring at the turn of the century, and what an “editorial” perfume house actually means in practice. He traces three lineages that built him — his maternal grandfather's role as Coty's right-hand and the founder of Parfums Christian Dior; his uncle Louis Malle's cinema and his father's film production company (Nouvelles Éditions); and his own six years at the legendary Roure perfumery lab. He explains the epiphany at the new self-service perfumery on the Champs-Élysées that convinced him perfumery was about to be flattened — and his answer: a house designed as a virtuous circle between freely-expressing perfumers and demanding clients. His three-part definition of what makes an iconic perfume — specificity, technical flawlessness, and the uncanny quality where the scent merges with the wearer's body until you can't tell where one ends and the other begins — is the line worth taking back from this entry.
Éditions de Parfums Frédéric Malleì 찜늜ììŽì, âì¡°í¥ì¬ì ìŽëŠì 몚ë 볎íì ëª ìí ìµìŽì ìžë¬Œâ Frédéric MalleìŽ The Grand Touristì Dan Rubinstein곌 ë§ì£Œ ìì, âìžêž° ì íêž°ì í¥ì ì°ì ìŽ ì ì¬êµ¬ì¡°íë íìê° ììëì§â, ê·žëŠ¬ê³ âìëí ëŠ¬ìŒ í¥ì íì°ì€ë ì€ì ë¡ ë¬Žìì ì믞íëì§âì ëíŽ Die Bibliothek ëŽ ê°ì¥ ëª ë£í ìŽìŒêž°ë¥Œ íìŽ ëëë€. 귞륌 ë§ë ìž ê°ëì ê³ë³Ž â ìží ìë²ì§ê° Cotyì ì€ë¥žíìŽì Parfums Christian Diorì 찜늜ììë€ë ì¬ì€, ìŒìŽ Louis Malleì ìíì ìë²ì§ì ìí ì ìì¬ âNouvelles Éditionsâì âìëì âìŽëŒë ëšìŽ, ê·žëŠ¬ê³ ë³žìžìŽ âì ì€ì ìž í¥ì ë©â Roureìì ë³Žëž 6ë â ì ì°šë¡ë¡ ì§ëë€. ì¹ì €ëЬì ì ì âì í ìë¹ì€ í¥ì ë§€ì¥âìì ë°ì âìíŒíëâ â âí¥ì ì°ì ìŽ ê³§ íííë ê²âìŽëŒë â ì ê·žì ëí ê·žì ëµ â âìì ë¡ê² ìêž° ìì ì íííë ì¡°í¥ì¬ë€â곌 âê¹ë€ë¡ìŽ ê³ ê°ë€â ì¬ìŽì âì ìí(virtuous circle)âìŒë¡ ì€ê³ë íì°ì€ â ë ì°šë¶í ì€ëª íë€. âììŽìœëí í¥ìì ìž ì¡°ê±Žâ â â구첎ì±, êž°ì ì ì벜íš, ê·žëŠ¬ê³ í¥ìê° ë륞 ìŽì 몞곌 âë¶ëЬí ì ìì ë§íŒ ìŒì²Žíëëâ êž°ë¬í ìì§â â ì ëí ê·žì ì ìë ìŽ ìží°ë·°ìì ì°ëŠ¬ê° ë°ëì ê°ì žê°ìŒ í âí ì€âìŽë€.
I'd love to start at the beginning. As someone born in Paris to a family so intertwined with the cultural life there, what are your earliest memories of the city?
ì²ìë¶í° ììíŽ ë³Žê³ ì¶ìµëë€. í늬ì â묞íì ì¶â곌 ê·ží ë¡ ê¹ìŽ ìœí ê°ë¬žìì íìŽë ë¶ìŒë¡ì, í늬ì ëí ê°ì¥ ìŽë¥ž êž°ìµì 묎ìì ëê¹?
We lived in a very large apartment on four floors — it was like a house in the air. The lower floors were very old-fashioned grand classical with classical painting, and on top, the penthouse where my brother and I lived was extremely modern. That probably informed my taste for the rest of my life: living in classical and futuristic at once, schizophrenic in a way, two separate worlds. In my taste today I mix things — in perfumes or any aesthetic thing. As for Paris, walking out of my house there was the Knoll boutique, very luxurious, very unique to Paris, run by a great decorator who would mix Knoll — almost futuristic at the time, I was born in the 60s — with more classical things. My childhood was going to the Tuileries gardens, crossing the Seine, going to see friends, and every morning taking the metro. The metro is a very big part of my life in Paris. It has this very peculiar smell, very peculiar feel. All of this was in Saint-Germain-des-Prés — my Saint-Germain-des-Prés can be seen in my uncle Louis Malle's movies.
ì°ëЬë âê³µì€ì ë ìë ì§âì²ëŒ 4ê° ìžµì ê±žì¹ ë§€ì° í° ìíížìì ìŽììµëë€. ìë ìžµë€ì íŽëì ííê° ê±žëŠ°, ë§€ì° ì€ëë ê·žëë íŽëì컬 ìììŽìê³ , ê°ì¥ ììžµ â í곌 ì ê° ìŽë íížíì°ì€ â ì ê·¹ëë¡ ëªšëíìµëë€. ê·žê²ìŽ íì ì ì 믞ì ê°ê°ì ë§ë€ìë€ê³ ëŽ ëë€ â âíŽëì곌 믞ë죌ì(futuristic)ê° ëìì 뚞묎ë ê³µê° ììì ìëë€âë ìŒì¢ ì âë¶ìŽì (schizophrenic)â 겜í. ë ê°ì ë¶ëЬë ìžê³ìì£ . ì§êžë ì ë â í¥ìë ë€ë¥ž 믞ì ìì ìŽë â ì¬ë¬Œë€ì âìë(mix)â ì¬ëì ëë€. í늬ì ëíŽìë â ì§ìì ëì€ë©Ž ë°ë¡ âí¬ë(Knoll)â ë¶í°í¬ê° ìììµëë€. í늬ììë§ ê°ë¥í ë§€ì° ëì 늬í ìŒë£žìŽìê³ , íë¥í ë°ìœë ìŽí°ê° ìŽìíìµëë€. ê·žë âí¬ëâ â ì ê° íìŽë 60ë ëìë ê±°ì â믞ëì âìŒë¡ 볎ìë â 곌 âì¢ ë íŽëìí ê²ë€âì ììŽ ëìì£ . ìŽëа ìì ì âíìŒëЬ ì ìâìŒë¡ ê°ë êžž, ìŒ ê°ì 걎ë ì¹êµ¬ë¥Œ ë§ëë¬ ê°ë êžž, ë§€ìŒ ì칚 ë©ížë¡ë¥Œ íë êžž ìì ìììµëë€. ë©ížë¡ë ì í늬 ìíì í° ë¶ë¶ì ëë€. ë§€ì° ë í¹í í¥ê³Œ ë§€ì° ë í¹í ê°ê°ìŽ ìì£ . 몚ë ìŒì ìì 륎맹 ë° íë (Saint-Germain-des-Prés)ìì ìŒìŽë¬ìµëë€ â âì ì ìì 륎맹 ë° íë âë ìŒìŽ Louis Malleì ìíë€ ììì 볌 ì ììµëë€.
How would you describe the scent of the Paris metro?
í늬 ë©ížë¡ì í¥ì ìŽë»ê² ë¬ì¬íìê² ìµëê¹?
A lot of people find it disgusting. First of all, it's unique — and I'm very much into unique scents. It hasn't changed much. This will sound disgusting to many people, but you know that dust is mostly dried skin, because we shed dry little pieces of skin. I think it's the smell of people's dry skin, and people, and the stone the metro is made with. That odd mixture — a warm smell, not a particularly clean smell. They haven't tinkered with it, haven't added anything to make it smell good, so it has that identity. To me it's this warm, woody, animalic smell — so linked to childhood that every time I get into the metro it has a Proustian effect. Neither good nor bad. It just is.
ë§ì ì¬ëë€ìŽ ê·ž í¥ì âìê²¹ë€âê³ í©ëë€. ê·žë¬ë ì°ì , ê·ž í¥ì âê³ ì í©ëë€(unique)â. ì ë âê³ ì í í¥âì ê¹ìŽ ë늬ë ì¬ëì ëë€. ê·ž í¥ì ê±°ì ë³íì§ ìììµëë€. ë€ì ìŽìŒêž°ë ë§ì ë¶ë€ìê² ë€ì ìê²¹ê² ë€ëŠŽ ì ìëë° â â뚌ì§(dust)ë ëë¶ë¶ ë§ë¥ž íŒë¶(dry skin)âì ëë€. ì°ëЬë ë§ë¥ž íŒë¶ ì¡°ê°ë€ì ëšìŽëšëŠ¬ë©° ìŽìê°ëë€. ë©ížë¡ì í¥ì âì¬ëë€ì ë§ë¥ž íŒë¶, ì¬ë ê·ž ì첎, ê·žëŠ¬ê³ ë©ížë¡ë¥Œ ë§ë ë(stone)âìŽ ììž í¥ìŽëŒê³ ëŽ ëë€. ê·ž âêž°ë¬í íŒí©â â ë°ë»í í¥, í¹ë³í â깚ëíâ í¥ì ìë. ë©ížë¡ë ê·ž í¥ì âìì ëì§ ìììµëë€â. âì¢ì ëìê° ëê² íë €ê³ â 묎ìžê°ë¥Œ ëíì§ ììêž°ì, ê·ž í¥ì âì 첎ì±âì ê·žëë¡ ê°ì§í©ëë€. ì ìê² ê·žê²ì âë°ë»íê³ , ì°ë(woody)íë©°, ì ëë©ëŠ(animalic)í í¥âì ëë€ â ìŽëа ìì 곌 ë묎ë ê¹ìŽ ì°ê²°ëìŽ ììŽ, ë©ížë¡ì ë€ìŽì€ ëë§ë€ âí룚ì€ížì íšê³Œ(Proustian effect)â륌 ìŒìŒíµëë€. ì¢ì ê²ë ëì ê²ë ìëëë€. ê·žì âìë ê·žëë¡ ì¡Žì¬íë ê²âìŽì£ .
Can you explain your maternal grandfather's link to the history of the perfume business?
ìží ìë²ì§ê»ì í¥ì ë¹ìŠëì€ì ìì¬ì ìŽë»ê² ì°ê²°ëìŽ ììŒì ì§ ì€ëª íŽ ì£Œì€ ì ììê¹ì?
My maternal grandfather was Christian Dior's childhood friend — they were both raised in Normandy. As a very young man he became the right-hand and then MD of a man called François Coty, who created the Coty company. It's a huge company now, but it was even bigger then, and Coty was really the inventor of modern perfumery. He chemically invented most of the chemical architectures of perfumes we still use today. He invented the duty-free. He invented — arguably — advertising. He invented a specific bottle associated with a perfume, working with Lalique. He invented windows showing only one thing when people used to show 50 things in a window. He understood impact and spectacle. My grandfather was part of that — the best school for perfumery. He left Coty in the 30s, started his own business quite successfully, and when Dior thought of opening his own fashion house, my grandfather proposed making a perfume right away — even before the New Look was shown. So Miss Dior was launched in 1947, just after or during the New Look. My grandfather was the founder of Parfums Christian Dior, and also Dior's best friend.
ìží ìë²ì§ë í¬ëЬì€í°ì ëì€ë¥Ž(Christian Dior)ì âìŽëа ìì ì¹êµ¬âììµëë€ â ë ë¶ ë€ ë žë¥Žë§ëìì ìëì£ . ë§€ì° ì ìë ìì , ìží ìë²ì§ë íëìì ìœí°(François Coty)ëŒë ìžë¬Œì âì€ë¥žíâìŽì ìŽí MD(ì 묎)ê° ëììµëë€. ìœí° íì¬ë ì€ëë ìë ê±°ëí íì¬ì§ë§, ë¹ììë ë 컞ìµëë€. ìœí°ë ì¬ì€ì âíë í¥ìì ë°ëª ìâììµëë€. ì€ëë ì°ëŠ¬ê° ì¬ì í ì¬ì©íë í¥ìì âííì ìí€í ì²(chemical architectures)â ëë¶ë¶ì ê·žê° ë§ë€ììµëë€. âëí°í늬(duty-free)âë ê·žê° ë°ëª íë€ê³ í©ëë€. âêŽê³ (advertising)â ìì ê·žê° ë°ëª íë€ê³ 볌 ì ììµëë€. í¥ìì âê³ ì í 볎í(specific bottle)âì ê²°í©íë ê² â Lalique곌 íì íŽ ë§ë â ë ê·žê° ììíê³ , ì¬ëë€ìŽ âìŒìëì 50ê°ì§ë¥Œ ëìŽëë ìì â ê·žë âì€ì§ íëë§ì 볎ì¬ì£Œë ìŒìëâ륌 ë§ë€ììµëë€. âìí©íž(impact)âì âì€íí°íŽ(spectacle)âì ê°ë ì ìŽíŽí ì¬ëìŽììµëë€. ìží ìë²ì§ë ê·ž 몚ë ê²ì ìŒë¶ììµëë€ â ê·žê²ìŽìŒë§ë¡ âí¥ìì ëí ìµê³ ì íêµâììµëë€. ê·žë 30ë ëì ìœí°ë¥Œ ë ë ìêž° ì¬ì ì ꜀ ì±ê³µì ìŒë¡ ìŽìíê³ , ëì€ë¥Žê° íšì íì°ì€ë¥Œ ìŽë €ê³ íì ë âìŠì í¥ì륌 ë§ë€ìâê³ ì ìíìµëë€ â ëŽ ë£©(New Look)ìŽ ë°íëêž°ë ì ìì. ê·žëì Miss Diorê° 1947ë , ëŽ ë£© ì§í ëë ëìì ì¶ìëììµëë€. ìží ìë²ì§ë Parfums Christian Diorì 찜늜ììê³ , ëìì ëì€ë¥Žì âê°ì¥ ê°ê¹ìŽ ì¹êµ¬âììµëë€.
My mother — my grandfather's darling — worked at Dior all her life. I used to nickname her Chauncey Gardiner from Being There, because she never got out of that garden. She worked at Christian Dior for 47 years, from 18 to 65. Perfumery was very important to her because it was a tie to her father, whom she had missed terribly. My brother and I were brought up with the idea that perfume was important, that one should never cut corners, that it had to be artistic. We absorbed those values. Not that she would show us very specific things in smelling — I learned that on my own. But I was wearing perfume as a child, which was unusual. And when I discovered seduction, I understood the role perfume plays in being attractive to someone. So I started wearing Halston and things outside the Dior planet, building my own.
ìŽëšžëë â ìží ìë²ì§ì âìëŒë ëž(darling)âìŽì
šê³ â íìì ëì€ë¥Žìì ìŒíì
šìµëë€. ì ë ìŽëšžë륌 ìí
Your father was a film producer who worked with your uncle Louis Malle. Was your childhood about going to the cinema?
ìë²ì§ê»ìë ìŒìŽ Louis Malleì íšê» ìí íë¡ëìë¡ë ìŒíì šìµëë€. ìŽëа ìì ì ìíêŽìì ë§ì ìê°ì 볎ëŽì ìì ìŽìëì?
Very much so. My father was a banker — he ran the international part of Lehman Brothers — but when my uncle started in cinema, my father and Louis started a film production company called Nouvelles Éditions de Films. There's the word édition in there. Nouvelles Éditions came from Jean Renoir, whose company was called Nouvelles Éditions Françaises, linked to Gallimard, the publishing house — specifically the Nouvelle Revue Française series, whose aesthetic influenced my packaging. Then Renoir was influenced by Gallimard, my father and uncle were influenced by Renoir, and I called my company first Nouvelles Éditions de Parfums, then simplified to Éditions de Parfums Frédéric Malle. It's this gauche, very Parisian world of literature and film, this idea of publishing art, that influenced my company.
ì ë§ ê·žë¬ìµëë€. ìë²ì§ë ìíê°ììµëë€ â Lehman Brothersì êµì ë¶ë¬ž ì± ììì šì£ . ê·žë¬ë ìŒìŽìŽ ìí ìŒì ììíì ë, ìë²ì§ì Louisê° íšê» âNouvelles Éditions de FilmsâëŒë ìí ì ì íì¬ë¥Œ ì°šë žìµëë€. ê·ž ìŽëŠ ìì âédition(ìëì )âìŽëŒë ëšìŽê° ììµëë€. âNouvelles Éditionsâë ì¥ ë¥Žëì륎(Jean Renoir)ì íì¬ëª âNouvelles Éditions Françaisesâìì ìê³ , ìŽë ì¶íì¬ ê°ëЬë§ë¥Ž(Gallimard)ì ì°ê²°ë©ëë€ â í¹í ê°ëЬë§ë¥Žì âNouvelle Revue Française(NRF)â ì늬ìŠì 믞íìŽ ì íší€ì§ì ìí¥ì 죌ììµëë€. 륎ëì륎ë ê°ëЬë§ë¥Žì ìí¥ì ë°ìê³ , ìë²ì§ì ìŒìŽì 륎ëì륎ì ìí¥ì ë°ìê³ , ì ë ì íì¬ë¥Œ ì²ìì âNouvelles Éditions de ParfumsâìŒë¡ ìŽëŠ ì§ìë€ê° âÉditions de Parfums Frédéric Malleâë¡ ëšìííìµëë€. ìŽ âgauche(ì¢ìì , ì¢íì )â ë¶ìêž°ì ë§€ì° í늬ì ìž â묞í곌 ìíâì ìžê³ â ê·žëŠ¬ê³ âìì ì ì¶í(publish)íë€ë ë°ìâ â ìŽ ì íì¬ì íí륌 ê²°ì íìµëë€.
We had this magical thing — my brother Guillaume and I could walk into any cinema in Paris for free, because of my father's pass as Louis's producer. So we watched two or three movies every weekend, including many we were not supposed to. I was 12 when I saw Fellini's Casanova — not appropriate — and I was so fascinated I went three times. My uncle gave me a Pentax camera when I was 12 and I started taking pictures. This very photographic, very cinematic way of seeing life is something I really developed. Way more important to me, then, than perfume. At the beginning I wanted to be an art director, linking perfume to imagery, and then I got to work with perfumers and fell into that. I had found my calling. But I always link perfume to people and perfume to images. The cinema part is crucial to bring up — people always talk about the perfume side of my family. The cinema side mattered just as much.
ì°ëЬìê²ë âë§ë² ê°ì í¹ê¶âìŽ ìììµëë€ â í Guillaume곌 ì ë âí늬ì ìŽë€ ìíêŽìŽë 묎ë£ë¡ ë€ìŽê° ì ìììµëë€â. Louisì íë¡ëììë ìë²ì§ì íšì€ë¥Œ ë¹ë € ë€ê³ ë€ë ê±°ë ì. ê·žëì ì°ëЬë ë§€ 죌ë§ë§ë€ ìí륌 2~3ížì© 뎀ìµëë€ â âëŽìë ì ëìâ ìíë ë§ìŽ í¬íšíŽìì. 12ìŽì 볞 í 늬ë(Fellini)ì Casanovaë ë¶ëª â12ìŽìŽ ëŽìë ì ëëâ ìíìì§ë§, ì ë ë묎 ë§€ë£ëìŽ ìž ë²ìŽë ê°ìµëë€. 12ìŽ ë ìŒìŽìŽ ì ìê² ìì ì âPentax 칎ë©ëŒâ륌 ë¬Œë €ì£Œì šê³ , ì ë ê·žëë¶í° ì¬ì§ì ì°êž° ììíìµëë€. âì¶ì ë§€ì° ì¬ì§ì ìŒë¡, ë§€ì° ìíì ìŒë¡ 볎ë ë°©ìâ â ìŽê²ìŽ ê·ž ìêž°ì ì ììì ê¹ìŽ êžžë¬ì¡ìµëë€. ê·žë ì ìê² âìíâë âí¥ìâë³Žë€ íšì¬ ë ì€ìíìµëë€. ì²ììë âìíž ëë í°âê° ëìŽ âí¥ìì ìŽë¯žì§ë¥Œ ì°ê²°íë ìŒâì íê³ ì¶ììµëë€. ê·žë°ë° ì¡°í¥ì¬ë€ê³Œ íšê» ìŒíê² ë멎ì âê·ž ìžê³âì ë¹ ì žë€ìê³ , ê±°êž°ì ì ì âìëª âì ë°ê²¬íìµëë€. ê·žë¬ë ì ë ë âí¥ìâ륌 âì¬ëâ곌 âìŽë¯žì§âì ì°ê²°í©ëë€. ìŽ âìí 쪜ì 배겜âì ì§ìŽ ì£Œìë ìŒìŽ ì ë§ ì€ìí©ëë€ â ì¬ëë€ì ë âì°ëЬ ê°ë¬žì í¥ì 쪜 배겜âë§ ìŽìŒêž°í©ëë€. âìí 쪜 배겜â ìì ê·žë§íŒìŽë ì€ìí©ëë€.
Tell me how you eventually got into the perfume business itself.
ê²°êµ ìŽë»ê² í¥ì ì°ì ììŒë¡ ë€ìŽê°ê² ëì šëì?
After NYU I worked in advertising for three years — thought it would be a good business school, a way to learn marketing and communication and imagery. I learned a lot. Then I met the man who ran the best lab in the industry — certainly the most creative one — Roure, responsible for one fine fragrance out of every two coming to market. We had a huge market share — Opium, Obsession, Poison, Oscar de la Renta, Lou Lou. Coty had invented half the great fragrance architectures; Roure invented the other half. Fracas, L'Air du Temps — all from Roure. The man running it, Jean Amic, was seen as the guru of the industry. He asked me to become his assistant after I went through some perfume education at school and a lot of being locked in the office and learning how to smell. I spent six years there and learned my trade. I always saw this business as a craft, and a craft you need to learn — that's why I'm uncomfortable with marketing people who've been selling soap and detergent and potato chips and then get into perfumery thinking the recipes apply. They don't always. It's an artistic business. You have to learn the trade.
NYU 졞ì í ì ë âì¢ì ë¹ìŠëì€ ì€ì¿šâ ìí ì íŽ ì€ ê±°ëŒ ìê°íŽ êŽê³ íì¬ìì 3ë ìŒíìµëë€. ë§ìŒí ·컀뮀ëìŒìŽì ·ìŽë¯žì§ë¥Œ ë°°ì°ë € í ê²ìŽìê³ , ë§ìŽ ë°°ì ìµëë€. ìŽí âì ê³ ìµê³ ì ë©(lab)â â ê°ì¥ ì°œìì ìž ë© â ì ìŽìíë ì¬ëì ë§ëê² ë©ëë€. ê·ž ë©ì ìŽëŠì Roureìê³ , âìì¥ì ëì€ë íìž íë ê·žë°ì€ ë ê° ì€ íëê° ìŽ ë©ìì ëììµëë€â. ì°ëЬë ë§ëí ìì¥ ì ì ìšì ê°ì§ê³ ìììµëë€ â Opium, Obsession, Poison, Oscar de la Renta, Lou Lou. Cotyê° ìëí í¥ì ìí€í ì²ì ì ë°ì ë°ëª íë€ë©Ž, Roureê° ëëšžì§ ì ë°ì ë°ëª íë€ê³ 볌 ì ììµëë€. Fracas, L'Air du Temps â 몚ë Roure ì¶ì ì ëë€. Roure륌 ìŽëë Jean Amicë âì ê³ì 구룚(guru)âë¡ íµíë ìžë¬Œì ëë€. ê·žë¶ìŽ ì ìê² âìì ì ìŽìì€íŽížê° ëìŽ ë¬ëŒâê³ ì ìíì šê³ , ì ë íêµììì í¥ì êµì¡ê³Œ âì¬ë¬Žì€ì ê°í ìí¥ë§ íë ìê°ë€âì ê±°ì³ ê·ž ì늬ì í©ë¥íìµëë€. ê·žê³³ìì 6ë ì 볎ëŽë©° âì ížë ìŽë(trade)â륌 ìµíìµëë€. ì ë ë ìŽ ë¹ìŠëì€ë¥Œ âí¬ëííž(craft)âë¡ ëŽ ììµëë€ â ê·žëŠ¬ê³ âë°°ììŒë§ íëâ í¬ëíížë¡ì. ê·žëì ì ë âë¹ë, ìžì , ê°ì칩ì íë ë§ìŒí°ë€ìŽ ìŽë ë í¥ìë¡ ì®ê²šì, ìêž°ë€ìŽ ìë ë ìíŒê° ê·žëë¡ íµí ê±°ëŒ ìê°íëâ 몚ìµìŽ ë¶íží©ëë€. ê·ž ë ìíŒë âíì íµíì§ë ììµëë€â. í¥ìë ìì ì ë¹ìŠëì€ìŽë©°, âížë ìŽë륌 ë°°ììŒë§â í©ëë€.
When you decided to start your own thing, was there something you felt the industry needed? Can you tell me about your unique editorial vision?
볞ìžì ëžëë륌 ììíêž°ë¡ ê²°ì íì šì ë, âì ê³ì íìí ê²ìŽ ë¬Žììžì§âì ëí ìŽë€ ê°ê°ìŽ ììŒì šëì? 볞ìžì âìëí ëŠ¬ìŒ ë¹ì (editorial vision)âì ëíŽ ë€ë €ì£Œììì€.
I had — it sounds corny, I hate the word, but it happened — I had an epiphany. I had a chance to work with Christian Lacroix, then still owned by LVMH, overseen by Bernard Arnault himself. It was my chance in life. Near the launch I walked into a very famous perfumery on the Champs-Élysées that had just opened, and I realised everything was classified like in a supermarket. No service. My epiphany was: this is going to take over the world. Now you're going to have to make perfumes that can be sold without service — without help — because it's self-service. Images would drive people to product. Celebrity perfumes, big launches. The perfumes would have to be crowd-pleasers. No room for specific perfumes like the ones I'd just made. Perfumery was going to evolve toward mass market, become very banal. Every perfume started smelling the same — that boring sweet thing that morphs as the general taste evolves.
ì¡°êž ì§ë¶íê² ë€ëŠ¬ê³ ì ë ìŽ ëšìŽë¥Œ ì«ìŽíì§ë§ â ë¶ëª í ìŒìŽë¬ìµëë€. ì ë í ë²ì ìíŒíë(epiphany, 깚ë¬ìì ìê°)륌 겜ííìµëë€. ë¹ì ì ë LVMH ì°íìê³ Bernard Arnaultê° ì§ì ê°ë íë Christian Lacroixì íšê» í¥ì ìì ì í êž°í륌 ì»ììµëë€. âìžìì êž°íâìì£ . ë°ì¹ ì§ì ì ì ë ì¹ì €ëЬì ì ìë¡ ìŽëа í ì ëª í¥ì ë§€ì¥ì ë€ë ê³ , â몚ë í¥ìê° ìíŒë§ìŒì²ëŒ ë¶ë¥ëìŽ ìë€. ìë¹ì€ë ìë€âë ì¬ì€ì 깚ë¬ììµëë€. ì ì 깚ë¬ìì ìŽê²ìŽììµëë€ â âìŽ íëŠìŽ ì ìžê³ë¥Œ ì¥ì í ê²ìŽë€â. ìŠ, ììŒë¡ë âìë¹ì€ ììŽ â ëì ììŽ â í늎 ì ìë í¥ìâ륌 ë§ë€ìŽìŒ íë€ë ê². âì í ìë¹ì€âê° êž°ë³žìŽ ëë ê². ê·žë¬ë©Ž âìŽë¯žì§âê° ì íì ëê³ ê° ê²ìŽê³ , âì ë¬ëžëŠ¬í° í¥ìâì âëí ë°ì¹âì ìëê° ì¬ ê²ì ëë€. ê·žëŠ¬ê³ ê·ž ìëì í¥ìë€ì 몚ë âëì€ì ìŠê²ê² íë(crowd-pleasers)â í¥ìì¬ìŒ í©ëë€. ì ê° ë§ ë§ë€ìë ê² ê°ì âë§€ì° í¹ì í(specific)â í¥ìê° ì€ ì늬ë ììŽì§ëë€. í¥ìë âë§€ì€ ë§ìŒ ë¹ìŠëì€âë¡ ì§ííë©° âë§€ì° íë²(banal)âíŽì§ ê²ì ëë€. ê·žëŠ¬ê³ ì€ì ë¡ ê·ž ìŽíë¡ â몚ë í¥ìê° ê°ì í¥ìŽ ëêž°â ììíìµëë€ â ìëì ì·ší¥ì ë°ëŒ 몚ìµë§ ìŽì§ ë°ëë, ê·ž âì§ë£šíê³ ë¬ì§ì§ê·Œí 묎ìâ.
So I realised someone had to react and find a system to save a more artistic vision of perfume. At that time my artistic friends I'd see at night were no longer wearing perfume, and the perfumers I'd see during the day were being asked to make boring perfumes for self-service. I thought: I have to create a connection between the more artistic perfumers and a more demanding group of clients. So I created Éditions de Parfums where perfumers can express themselves freely and treat perfume as art. The perfumers have very different personalities, so the collection became more eclectic over time — they became the echo of those very specific characters, and of very specific clients. The freedom of one group informs the freedom of the other. A virtuous circle.
ê·žëì ì ë âëêµ°ê°ë ë°ìíŽìŒ íê³ , âì¢ ë ìì ì ìž í¥ìì ë¹ì âì ì§ìŒëŒ ìì€í ì ì°ŸììŒ íë€âê³ ê²°ë¡ ì§ììµëë€. ê·ž ìêž°, ì ë ì ë§ëë âìì ì ì¹êµ¬ë€âì ë ìŽì í¥ì륌 ëë¥Žì§ ìê³ ììê³ , ë®ì ë§ëë âì¡°í¥ì¬ë€âì âì í ìë¹ì€ ë§€ì¥ìì í늎 ë§í, ì§ë£ší í¥ìâ륌 ë§ë€ëë¡ ì구ë°ê³ ìììµëë€. ì ë ê²°ëšíìµëë€ â âì¢ ë ìì ì ìž ì¡°í¥ì¬ë€â곌 âì¢ ë ê¹ë€ë¡ìŽ ê³ ê°ìžµâ ì¬ìŽì âì°ê²°ì ë€ëЬâ륌 ë§ë€ìŽìŒê² ë€ê³ . ê·žë ê² íŽì ë§ë ê²ìŽ Éditions de Parfumsì ëë€. ê·žê³³ììë ì¡°í¥ì¬ê° âìì ë¡ê² ìêž° ìì ì íííê³ , í¥ì륌 ìì ì²ëŒ ë€ë£° ì ììµëë€â. ì¡°í¥ì¬ë€ì ë§€ì° ë€ë¥ž ìžê²©ì ê°ì§ê³ ìêž° ë묞ì, 컬ë ì ì ìê°ìŽ í륌ìë¡ âë ì ì¶©ì (eclectic)âìŽ ëììµëë€ â í¥ì íëíëê° âë§€ì° êµ¬ì²Žì ìž ìžë¬Œ(character)ì ë©ì늬âìŽì, âë§€ì° êµ¬ì²Žì ìž ê³ ê°ì ë©ì늬âê° ëììµëë€. âí 귞룹ì ìì âê° âë€ë¥ž 귞룹ì ìì â륌 í€ì ì€ëë€. âì ìí(virtuous circle)âì ëë€.
Why did you feel the need to give the perfumer authorship — like a book publisher? Did anyone push back?
ì¡°í¥ì¬ìê² âì ì(authorship)â륌 ë¶ì¬íêž°ë¡ í ê²°ì â ë§ì¹ âì± ì¶íì(publisher)âê° ìê°ë¥Œ ë€ë£šë¯ â ì ìŽë€ íììì ëììµëê¹? ë°ëíë ì¬ëë ììëì?
Because we were the first to ever mention perfumers, I put pressure on myself thinking, “Why hasn't anyone done this before? Is this Candid Camera?” I was paranoid. It seemed so obvious. These people are artists, true talents, real eccentrics. You talk about decorators, chefs, all of that — perfumers are never to be mentioned. Most people in the streets have no idea how Mr. Sauron or Mr. Diorshe came up with that perfume. They don't even know perfumers exist. It's crazy. No one told me anything because I kept it extremely secretive — even my mother, who probably worried I'd start my own business, would say “Can I come for tea?” and I'd stack everything in a cupboard, give her tea, talk about the weather. I knew I was taking that risk.
âì¡°í¥ì¬ì ìŽëŠì 볎íì ëª ìí ìµìŽì ëžëëâê° ì°ëЬìêž° ë묞ì, ì ë ì€ì€ë¡ âì ì묎ë 뚌ì ìŽê±ž íì§ ììì§? í¹ì â몰ë 칎ë©ëŒ(Candid Camera)âìžê°?â ëŒê³ ìì¬í ì ëììµëë€. ížì§ìŠì ìŽìì£ . ë묎 âë¹ì°í ìŒâë¡ ë³Žìêž° ë묞ì ëë€. ìŽ ì¬ëë€ì âìì ê°âìŽê³ , âì§ì§ ì¬ë¥ ìë ì¬ëë€âìŽë©°, âì§ì§ ë³ë ìžë¬Œë€(eccentrics)âì ëë€. ì¬ëë€ìŽ ë°ìœë ìŽí°, ì °í, ëììŽëì ëíŽìë ë ìŽìŒêž°í©ëë€ â ê·žë¬ë âì¡°í¥ì¬âë§íŒì í ë²ë ìžêžëì§ ììµëë€. 거늬ìì ë§ëë ëë¶ë¶ì ì¬ëë€ì âMr. SauronìŽ ìŽë»ê² ê·ž í¥ì륌 ë§ë€ìëì§â, ì¬ì§ìŽ âì¡°í¥ì¬ëŒë 졎ì¬ê° ìë€ë ì¬ì€ ì첎â륌 ëªšëŠ ëë€. ë¯žì¹ ìŒì ëë€. ë구ë ì ìê² ìŽ ê²°ì ì ëíŽ âë°ëâí êž°íê° ìììµëë€ â ì ê° ëªšë ê²ì âê·¹ëë¡ ë¹ë°ì€ëœê²(secretive)â ê°ì§ê³ ììêž° ë묞ì ëë€. ìŽëšžëê»ì âì ê° ì¬ì ì ììí ê¹ ëŽ ê±±ì ëìŽâ âì°š í ì ë§ìë¬ ê°ë ëê² ë?âëŒê³ 묌ìŒì멎, ì ë â몚ë ìë£ë¥Œ ì°¬ì¥ì ìì ëê³ â 찚륌 ëŽê³ , ë ìš ìŽìŒêž°ë§ íìµëë€. ì ë ì ê° âí° ìíì ê°ìíê³ ìë€âë ì¬ì€ì ìê³ ìììµëë€.
Why did I do it? To me it was only justice that these people, hidden for years, would finally be spoken about. Second, perfumery is a small milieu — they're proud, they want the business to evolve. Copies are poo-pooed in this industry. I knew that if perfumers put their name on a bottle, they would do anything to be very, very good vis-à-vis their competitors and friends. And third — if you have an author, you're dealing with an artistic product. So it was also a way to explain to the public that we were dealing with artistic perfumes. And instead of putting myself forward and saying I did everything, I thought it was easier for me to say I'm just the publisher, and then letting these people gallop as fast as they want. It was way easier for me to say “this is the sexiest perfume in the world, and Maurice Roucel has done it” than to say “this is the greatest perfume in the world and I have done it.” That's harder, especially when you've been brought up to be modest.
ì ê·žë ê² íëëê³ ì? 첫짞, ì ìê² ìŽê²ì âì ì(justice)âì 묞ì ììµëë€ â âìì ë ëì ê°ë €ì ž ìë ì¬ëë€âì ëíŽ âìŽì ë ìŽìŒêž°ëìŽìŒ íë€âê³ . ëì§ž, í¥ìê³ë ë§€ì° ì¢ì âë°ëЬìž(milieu, ëë€)âìŽê³ , ì¡°í¥ì¬ë€ì âìêžì¬ìŽ ìë ì¬ëë€âìŽë©° âì ê³ê° ì§ííêžž ë°ëëë€â. ëí ìŽ ì ê³ìì â칎íŒ(copy)âë â겜멞(poo-poo)âì ëìì ëë€. ê·žëì âì¡°í¥ì¬ë€ìŽ ìì ì ìŽëŠì 볎íì ìêž°ê² ë멎 â 겜ììì ì¹êµ¬ë€ ììì â â묎ììŽë ëìíŽ ë§€ì°, ë§€ì° ì ë§ë€ìŽ ëŽê³ ì í ê²âìŽëŒë ì ì ì ë ìê³ ìììµëë€. ì ì§ž, âì ì(author)âê° ìë€ë ê²ì ê³§ âìì ì ì°ë¬Œ(artistic product)ì ë€ë£šê³ ìë€ë ì¬ì€âì ì믞í©ëë€. ê·žëì âì¡°í¥ì¬ ìŽëŠì ëª ìâë âì°ëŠ¬ê° ìì ì í¥ì륌 ë€ë£¬ë€ë ì¬ì€ì ëì€ìê² ì€ëª íë ë°©ìâìŽêž°ë íìµëë€. ê·žëŠ¬ê³ ì ë âì ê° ëªšë ê²ì ë€ íë€âëŒê³ âì ìì ì ëŽìžì°ëâ ëì , âì ë ê·žì ì¶íì(publisher)ìŒ ë¿âìŽëŒê³ ë§íê³ âìŽ ì¡°í¥ì¬ë€ìŽ ìíë ë§íŒ ë¹ ë¥Žê² ë¬ë €ê°ëë¡(gallop)â ëë ížìŽ íšì¬ ì¬ì ìµëë€. âìŽê²ì ìžê³ìì ê°ì¥ ì¹ìí í¥ìì ëë€ â ëªšëŠ¬ì€ ë£šì (Maurice Roucel)ìŽ ë§ë€ììµëë€âëŒê³ ë§íë ê²ìŽ, âìŽê²ì ìžê³ìì ê°ì¥ ìëí í¥ìì ëë€ â ì ê° ë§ë€ììµëë€âëŒê³ ë§íë ê²ë³Žë€ íšì¬ ìœê±°ë ì. íìë ì ë§ ìŽë µìµëë€. í¹í â겞ìíš(modest)ì 믞ëìŒë¡ ë°°ì ìë ì¬ëâìê²ëì.
Were you leveraged when you started this business? You really had all your eggs in one basket?
ìŽ ì¬ì ì ììíì€ ë âë ë²ëЬì§â ìíìŽì šëì? ì ë§ â몚ë ë¬ê±ì í ë°êµ¬ëì ëŽìâ ìíì šìµëê¹?
Yes. I inherited a bit of money from my father, and I put everything on the red. It paid off. But it wasn't the best way to get good sleep.
ë€. ìë²ì§ë¡ë¶í° ìœê°ì ì ì°ì ë°ìê³ , ì ë ê·ž 몚ë ê²ì âë ë(ë¶ìì)âì 걞ììµëë€. 결곌ì ìŒë¡ 볎ìì ë°ììµëë€. ë€ë§ âì멎ì ì·šíë ë° ì¢ì ë°©ë²âì ë¶ëª ìëììµëë€.
What makes a scent iconic? Can you identify some quality that stands the test of time?
âììŽìœë(iconic)âí í¥ì륌 ë§ëë ììë 묎ìì ëê¹? âìê°ì ìí(test of time)âì 견ëë ìŽë€ í¹ì§ìŽ ììê¹ì?
Iconic scents share the same ingredients to success. One: they are extremely specific, easy to recognise, with a very strong character. You cannot be iconic if you are wishy-washy. You can be successful financially with a huge brand and billions of advertising, but the minute you pull the plug it crashes. The classics, the ones that survive without investment, are really specific, usually the first of their kind. Two: they are flawless technically — they last on skin, they have all of that. Three — and this is what took me a long time to understand — there is this hard-to-describe quality where they become not a smell but a perfume. They become so much part of one's body that it becomes a person's smell, and you don't know where the person's natural smell stops and the perfume begins. They blend in one another. It's a human smell. When you work on a candle, it's not a human smell — it's fine, it's beautiful, maybe comfortable, but not human. So a candle is easy. Making something that becomes a person is a different thing.
ììŽìœëí í¥ìë€ì âì±ê³µì ê°ì ì¬ë£ë€âì ê³µì í©ëë€. 첫짞: ë§€ì° â구첎ì (specific)âìŽê³ , ìì볎Ʞ ì¬ì°ë©°, ë§€ì° ê°í âìºëŠí°(character)â륌 ê°ì§ëë€. âì°ì ë¶ëš(wishy-washy)âí í¥ì ê²°ìœ ììŽìœëìŽ ë ì ììµëë€. ê±°ëí ëžëëì ìììµì êŽê³ ìì°ìŒë¡ âì¬ì ì ìŒë¡â ì±ê³µí ìë ìì§ë§, âíë¬ê·žë¥Œ ëœë ìê°â 묎ëì§ëë€. âì§ì§ íŽëìë€ â í¬ìê° ë겚ë ìŽìëšë í¥ìë€ â âì ë§€ì° êµ¬ì²Žì ìŽê³ , ë³Žíµ âìêž° 칎í ê³ ëŠ¬ì 첫 í¥ìâì ëë€. ëì§ž: êž°ì ì ìŒë¡ âí ìŽ ììµëë€(flawless)â â íŒë¶ ììì ì€ë ê°ê³ , ê·ž 몚ë êž°ì ì ì걎ì 충족ìíµëë€. ì ì§ž â ê·žëŠ¬ê³ ì ê° ìŽíŽíë ë° ì€ë ìê°ìŽ ê±žëŠ° ë¶ë¶ â ìŽ í¥ìë€ìë âì€ëª íêž° ìŽë €ìŽ ìŽë€ ìì§âìŽ ììµëë€. âëì(smell)ê° ìëëŒ í¥ì(perfume)ê° ëëâ ìì§ì ëë€. í¥ìê° ì¬ëì 몞ì ë묎ë ê¹ìŽ ìŒì²ŽíëìŽ, âí ì¬ëì í¥(person's smell)ìŽ ëìŽ ë²ëŠœëë€â. ê·ž ì¬ëì â볞ë í¥âìŽ ìŽëìì ë©ì¶ê³ âí¥ìâê° ìŽëìì ììëëì§ ì ì ììµëë€. ëìŽ íëë¡ âìì ëë€â. âìžê°ì í¥(human smell)âìŽ ë©ëë€. ìºë€ì ìì í ëë â ê·žê²ì âìžê°ì í¥âìŽ ìëëë€. ìëŠëµê³ , ížìí ì ìì§ë§, âìžê°ì (human)âìŽì§ë ììµëë€. ìºë€ì ìœìµëë€. âí ì¬ë(a person)ìŽ ëë 묎ìâì ë§ëë ìŒì, ìì í ë€ë¥ž ì°šìì ìŒì ëë€.
To take Portrait of a Lady as an example — it's a funny story. Dominique [Ropion] and I thought the dry-down of Géranium Pour Monsieur, which we'd just made, could be ripped out and developed into a scent. We did that, but it was a bit like lounge music or one of those one-dimensional niche perfumes — only one rhythm. Then we came up with the idea of adding a huge amount of rose, which made us change course. We were so in love with what we were doing. The question was: in a world that's not always pretty, was it too refined? Because it was so specific, so over-the-top, we worried — will people get it? They got it. It became our best-seller. Sometimes when you take this huge risk, there's a huge reward. But yes, it can fail miserably.
Portrait of a Ladyì ìë¡ ë€ê² ìµëë€ â ì¬ë¯žìë ìŽìŒêž°ì ëë€. Dominique[Ropion]곌 ì ë ì°ëŠ¬ê° ë§ ë§ë Géranium Pour Monsieurì âëëŒìŽë€ìŽ(dry-down)â ë¶ë¶ë§ì ëŒìŽëŽ âë³ëì í¥ìâë¡ ë°ì ìí¬ ì ìê² ë€ê³ ìê°íìµëë€. ê·žë ê² íŽ ëŽ€ì§ë§ 결곌묌ì âëŒìŽì§ 뮀ì§âìŽë âí ê°ì§ 늬ë¬ë§ ê°ì§ ëšì¡°ë¡ìŽ ëì¹ í¥ìâ ê°ììµëë€ â 1ì°šìì ìŽìì£ . ê·žë¬ë€ âìì²ë ìì ë¡ìŠë¥Œ ëíë€âë ììŽëìŽê° ë ì¬ëê³ , ê·žê²ìŽ ìœì€ë¥Œ ë°êŸžììµëë€. ì°ëЬë ìì ì첎ì ë묎ë ë§€ë£ëìŽ ììê³ , ëìì ì§ë¬žìŽ ë°ëŒììµëë€ â âìëŠëµêž°ë§ í ìžê³ê° ìë ìŽ ìžììì, ìŽ í¥ìë ë묎 ì ì ë(refined) ê²ìŽ ìëê¹?â ë묎 구첎ì ìŽê³ , ë묎 â곌í(over-the-top)â í¥ìŽìêž°ì, âì¬ëë€ìŽ ìŽê±ž ìŽíŽí ê¹?â륌 ê±±ì íìµëë€. ê·žë¬ë ì¬ëë€ì âìŽíŽíìµëë€â. ìŽ í¥ìë ì°ëЬì ë² ì€ížì ë¬ê° ëììµëë€. ëë¡ë âìì²ë ìíâìŽ âìì²ë 볎ìâìŒë¡ ëììµëë€. ë¬Œë¡ , âë¹ì°žíê² ì€íší ìë ììµëë€â.
There's this story I love: Greta Garbo decides to retire, secretly longing to come back. But she never could come back — because she was too beautiful, too grand. No one identified with her. She was not bankable. She had become a star shining so high that no one could think “oh, she could fit a part.” A perfume has to be part of life. So the difficulty is: you can make something specific, something human, something extraordinary — a home run — but it still has to stay more or less in the park. That's what makes a perfume magical, or not.
ì ê° ì¢ìíë ìŽìŒêž° íëê° ììµëë€ â Greta Garboê° âìíŽâ륌 ê²°ì¬í©ëë€. ì¬ì€ ê·žë ë âëìì€êž°ë¥Œ ê°ë§íê³ ìììµëë€â. ê·žë¬ë ê·žë ë âëëŽ ëìì¬ ì ìììµëë€â â ê·žë ê° âë묎 ìëŠëµê³ , ë묎 ê·žëë(grand)íêž° ë묞âì ëë€. ë구ë ê·žë ìê² âìŽì (identify)âí ì ìììµëë€. ê·žë ë âë± ì»€ëž(bankable)âìŽì§ 못íìµëë€. ê·žë ë ë묎 âëìŽâ ë¹ëë ë³ìŽ ëìŽ ë²ë €, ê·ž ë구ë âì, ê·žë ê° ìŽ ë°°ìì ìŽìžëŠ¬ê² ë€âê³ ë ì¬ëŠŽ ì ìììµëë€. í¥ìë âì¶ì ìŒë¶(part of life)âì¬ìŒ í©ëë€. ê·žëì ìŽë €ììŽ ììµëë€ â ë§€ì° êµ¬ì²Žì ìŽê³ , ë§€ì° ìžê°ì ìŽê³ , ë§€ì° ë¹ë²í 묎ì â ìŠ âíë°âìŽ ë ë§í â ì ë§ë€ ì ìì§ë§, ê·žê²ìŽ ì¬ì í âêµ¬ì¥ ì(in the park)âì 뚞묌ë¬ìŒ í©ëë€. âë§ë²ì ìž í¥ìê° ëëë, ê·žë ì§ ëª»íëëâ â ë°ë¡ ê·ž í ë ì°šìŽì ëë€.
Scent has become more unisex over time. How do you approach gender today?
âì ëâëŒë 잡멎ìì, í¥ìë ìê°ìŽ í륎며 ì ì âì ëì¹ì€â 쪜ìŒë¡ ê°ê³ ììµëë€. 볞ìžì ì€ëë âì ëâ륌 ìŽë»ê² ë€ë£šìëê¹?
We were very innovative almost 25 years ago when we launched. I always told the people in my store: don't be prejudiced. Give them what you think they want. It's not about you being almighty or selling what you like — it's what this person will like. Being heterosexual and having been in the business for a long time already, when I worked on Musc Ravageur with Maurice Roucel, I was seeing this very sexy girl in my head. The minute we opened, many men — straight and gay — were attracted by Musc Ravageur. As many men buying it as women. It reminded me that people were prejudiced before, and companies advertised a lot, and perfume was always cliched, always about seduction. Obsession was ‘the irresistible perfume’ — Avedon's ads basically said: if you wear this, every single man will be obsessed by you. You couldn't say “your husband can wear it too,” it had to be one side or the other. So they launched a similar blend for men saying the same thing. When we launched our company, I decided to have no imagery — because I didn't want to lead people. So when we launched Musc Ravageur, it was easy for us to sell it to a man or a woman. Even Portrait of a Lady we sell to many men, although ‘Lady’ is in the name.
ì°ëЬë ìœ 25ë ì ë°ì¹ ë¹ì ë§€ì° íì ì ìŽììµëë€. ì ë ë§€ì¥ì ì§ìë€ìê² ë ìŽë ê² ë§íìµëë€ â âížê²¬ì ê°ì§ì§ ë§ëŒ. âë¹ì ìŽ ìŽ ì¬ëìê² ìŽìžëаë€ê³ ìê°íë ê²âì ì€ëŒ. ë ìì ì âì ë¥í 졎ì¬(almighty)âë¡ ë§ë€ê±°ë âë€ê° ì¢ìíë ê²âì íë €ê³ íì§ ë§ëŒ. âìŽ ì¬ëìŽ ì¢ìí ê²âì ì€ëŒ.â ì ë ìŽì±ì ììŽê³ ìŽ ì ê³ì ꜀ ì€ë ììì§ë§, Maurice Roucel곌 Musc Ravageur륌 ìì í ë ì 뚞늿ììë âë§€ì° ì¹ìí í ì¬ì±âìŽ ìììµëë€. ê·žë°ë° ë§€ì¥ì ìŽìë§ì, âìŽì±ì ìë ëì±ì ìë ì ë§ ë§ì ëšì±ë€âìŽ Musc Ravageurì ëë žìµëë€. ê·ž í¥ì륌 ì¬ë¬ ì€ë ëšì±ì ìê° ì¬ì±ì ìë§íŒìŽë ë§ììµëë€. ìŽ ê²œíì ì ìê² âìŽì ìžëê° ìŒë§ë âížê²¬(prejudice)âìŒë¡ ê°ëíëì§â륌 ë€ì ìŒê¹šì 죌ììµëë€. íì¬ë€ì êŽê³ 륌 ë§ìŽ íê³ , í¥ìë ë âíŽëŠ¬ì °âìê³ , ë âì í¹(seduction)âì ë구ììµëë€. Obsessionì âì íí ì ìë í¥ì(the irresistible perfume)âìê³ â Avedonì êŽê³ ë ê²°êµ ìŽë ê² ë§íë ì ìŽììµëë€ â âë¹ì ìŽ ìŽê±ž ë륎멎, 몚ë ëšìê° ë¹ì ìê² ë¯žì¹ ë¯ìŽ ë늎 ê²ìŽë€â. ê·ž ìëìë âë¹ì ëšížë ìŽê±ž ë륌 ì ìë€âê³ ë§í ì ìììµëë€. âë ì€ í쪜âìŽìŽìŒ íì£ . ê·žëì ê·žë€ì âëšì±ì©ë ê°ì ìœì ížë¡ ë°ë¡ ì¶ìâíìµëë€. ì°ëŠ¬ê° íì¬ë¥Œ ë°ì¹íì ë, ì ë âìŽë¯žì§ë¥Œ ëì§ ìêž°ë¡â ê²°ì íìµëë€ â âì¬ëë€ì ìì ì ì ëíê³ ì¶ì§ ììêž°â ë묞ìŽì£ . ê·žëì Musc Ravageur륌 ì¶ìíì ë, ì°ëЬë âëšììê²ë ì¬ììê²ëâ ìœê² í ì ìììµëë€. Portrait of a Lady ëí â ìŽëŠì âLady(ì¬ì±)âê° ë€ìŽê° ìììë â ë§ì ëšììê² íë§€ë©ëë€.
What scent do you hate the most?
ê°ì¥ ì«ìŽíìë í¥(scent)ì 묎ìì ëê¹?
Two: the trash in New York. When I brought my daughter to school I knew which days the trucks would be on which streets and I'd go around to avoid them — sometimes it makes me throw up. And the smell of a butcher shop. I've fainted twice in a butcher shop. I don't know what it is exactly, but it repels me. I can eat a raw steak — I love steak tartare — but I walk into a butcher shop and I'm on the ground. The first time was in the Swiss mountains. Smell is important to me.
ë ê°ì§ê° ììµëë€. 첫짞, âëŽìì ì°ë êž° ížëâì í¥. ëžì íêµì ë°ë €ë€ ì€ ë, âìŽë€ ììŒì ìŽë 거늬ì ê·ž ížëìŽ ëëì§â륌 ìžì âìŒë¶ë¬ ì°íâíŽì ë€ë ìµëë€. ê°ëì ê·ž ëì ë묞ì â구í â륌 í ì ëìê±°ë ì. ëì§ž, âì ì¡ì (butcher shop)âì í¥. ì ë ì ì¡ì ìì âë ë²ìŽë êž°ì âí ì ìŽ ììµëë€. ê·ž ì ì²Žê° ì íí 묎ììžì§ë ëªšë¥Žê² ì§ë§, ì 륌 âê²©ë ¬íê² ë°ìŽëŽëâ í¥ì ëë€. í¥ë¯žë¡ìŽ ì ì â ì ë âìê³ êž°(raw steak)â륌 ëš¹ì ì ììµëë€. âì€í ìŽí¬ í륎í륎(steak tartare)â륌 ì¬ëíì£ . ê·žë°ë° ì ì¡ì ì ë°ì ë€ìŽë ìê° ë°ë¥ì ì°ë¬ì§ëë€. 첫 ë²ì§ž êž°ì ì ì€ìì€ ì°ì ì§ë°©ììììµëë€. íê°ì ì ìê² ë§€ì° ì€ìí ê°ê°ì ëë€.
Tell me about your latest scent, Heaven Can Wait.
ìµê·Œ ì ì âHeaven Can Waitâì ëíŽ ë€ë € 죌ììì€.
Heaven Can Wait is an odd story. It was done during Covid — we were scared of getting sick, partly because of the danger of losing our sense of smell, without which we can't do much. So we were all calling each other. I called Jean-Claude Ellena. He's a very good friend, and I realised in the conversation that he was the only perfumer who could still be active — because he's half-retired, weighs things himself, has gone back to a very artisanal approach, and his lab is a mile from his home. So we started exchanging at a distance. He was in Grasse, I was in Long Island. He had this idea of working with warm spices — spices that last longer and are more centred than what he usually does, which is cooler, flinty, fresh spices. I'd been talking to Jean-Claude for years about making bigger perfumes, with more drama. So this was him saying: I want to give it a go.
Heaven Can Waitì âí¹ìŽí ìŽìŒêž°â륌 ê°ì§ ìíì ëë€. ìœë¡ë ìŽêž°ì ë§ë€ìŽì¡ìµëë€ â ì°ëЬ 몚ëë âë³ì 걞늎ê¹â ëë €ìíê³ ììê³ , ê·ž ëë €ìì ìŒë¶ë âíê°ì ììì§ë 몚륞ë€âë ê³µí¬ììµëë€. íê°ìŽ ììŒë©Ž ì°ëЬë ì¬ì€ì âì묎ê²ë í ì ìë ì¬ëë€âì ëë€. ê·žëì ë€ë€ ìë¡ìê² ìë¶ ì í륌 ëëŠ¬ê³ ììê³ , ì ë Jean-Claude Ellenaìê²ë ì í륌 íìµëë€. ê·žë ì ì ë§€ì° ê°ê¹ìŽ ì¹êµ¬ì ëë€. íµí ëì€, ì ë ê·žê° âì¬ì í ìì ì í ì ìë ì ìŒí ì¡°í¥ì¬âëŒë ì¬ì€ì 깚ë¬ììµëë€ â ê·žë âë°ì¯€ ìíŽ(half-retired)â ìíìê³ , â묎ê²ë ì§ì ì¬ê³ â, âë§€ì° ì¥ìžì (artisanal)ìž ì ê·ŒâìŒë¡ ëëìê° ìíììŒë©°, ê·žì ë©ìŽ ê·žì ì§ìì â1ë§ìŒë°ì ëšìŽì ž ìì§ ììêž°â ë묞ì ëë€. ê·žëì ì°ëЬë âì거늬(at a distance)âìì ìì 륌 ì£Œê³ ë°êž° ììíìµëë€. ê·žë ê·žëŒì€ì ììê³ , ì ë 롱ììŒëëì ìììµëë€. ê·žìê²ë âë°ë»í ì€íìŽì€(warm spices)ë¡ ìì íë€âë ììŽëìŽê° ìììµëë€ â íì ê·žê° ë€ë£šë âì°šê°ê³ , ë¶ì¯ë ê°ê³ , ì ì í ì€íìŽì€âë³Žë€ âë ì€ë ê°ê³ ë ì€ì¬ì ì늬ì¡ëâ ì€íìŽì€. ì ë ìë ê° Jean-Claudeìê² âì¢ ë í° í¥ì, ì¢ ë âëëŒë§(drama)âê° ìë í¥ì륌 ë§ë€ìŽ ë³Žìâê³ ìŽìŒêž°íŽ ìëë°, ìŽë²ìŽ ê·žê° âìëíŽ ë³Žê² ë€âê³ ëµí ìê°ìŽììµëë€.
It became a bouquet of spices. Jean-Claude has a strong style, so as he often does, he plugged this into iris — a very luxurious iris, an iris infusion, where you dip iris in alcohol for a long time and then mix the result with the spices, warmed by a touch of vanilla, a touch of fruit, a little musk — which is unusual for Jean-Claude because his style is so sharp. The musk works like the pedal in a piano: it makes things a little blurry and softer. Because we had time, we let it sit, and when I re-smelled it later with perspective I realised there's a contour, a filigram, of the most Parisian and classic perfume there is — L'Origan. L'Origan was a Coty perfume that influenced Guerlain's L'Heure Bleue, which later became Oscar de la Renta, and the whole family of floral orientals. It's as if Jean-Claude had taken that very big oil-painting theme and made a delicate drawing of it. Looking for new modern shapes in the 21st century with Jean-Claude, we designed a modern shape — but it still has an echo of this very classic Parisian sophistication. You never really escape.
결곌ì ìŒë¡ ê·žê²ì âì€íìŽì€ì ë¶ìŒ(bouquet of spices)âê° ëììµëë€. Jean-Claudeë âê°í ì€íìŒâì ê°ì§ ì¬ëìŽëŒ, ë ê·žë¬íë¯ ìŽ ìì ë âììŽëЬì€(iris)âì âíë¬ê·žìž(plug in)â íìµëë€ â ë§€ì° ëì 늬í ììŽëЬì€, âììŽëŠ¬ì€ ìžíšì (infusion)âì ëë€. ììŽëЬì€ë¥Œ ììœì¬ì ì€ë«ëì âëŽê·žê³ (dip)â, ê·ž 결곌묌ì ì€íìŽì€ì âìê³ â, ê±°êž°ì ìœê°ì ë°ëëŒ, ìœê°ì 곌ìŒ, ìœê°ì ëšžì€í¬ â ê·žì ì€íìŒì¹ê³ ë ìŽë¡ì ìŒë¡ â 륌 ëíŽ âë°ë»íê² íìŽ ì€ëë€â. ëšžì€í¬ë âíŒìë žì íë¬âì²ëŒ ìëí©ëë€ â ì¬ë¬Œì ì€ê³œì âìœê° íëŠ¬ê³ , ë ë¶ëëœê²â ë§ë€ìŽ ì€ëë€. ìê°ìŽ ììêž° ë묞ì, ì°ëЬë âìì±ëë€âê³ ìê°í ë€ìë íì°ž âëê³ ë³Žììµëë€â. ìŽí 거늬륌 ëê³ ë€ì ìí¥íì ë, ì ë ê·ž ìì â âí늬ìì ê°ì¥ í늬ì ìŽê³ ê°ì¥ íŽëìí í¥ìâì âì€ê³œ(contour) â í늬귞ëš(filigram)âìŽ ìë€ë ê²ì 깚ë¬ììµëë€ â ê·ž í¥ìë L'Origanì ëë€. L'Origanì Cotyì í¥ììê³ , Guerlainì L'Heure Bleueì ìí¥ì 죌ììŒë©°, íì Oscar de la Rentaë¡ ìŽìŽì¡ê³ , âíë¡ëŽ ì€ëЬìí(floral oriental)â íšë°ëЬ ì 첎륌 ë§ë€ìŽ ëž í¥ìì ëë€. Jean-Claudeë âê·ž ê±°ëí ì í(oil painting)âì 죌ì 륌 ê°ì žì âì¬ìží ëë¡ì(delicate drawing)âìŒë¡ ë€ì ê·žë €ëž ì ìŽì£ . 21ìžêž°ì Jean-Claudeì íšê» âìë¡ìŽ íëì ííâ륌 ì°ŸìŒë©Žì, ì°ëЬë ë¶ëª í â몚ëí 몚ìâì ëììžíìµëë€ â ê·žë¬ë ê·ž ììë ì¬ì í âë§€ì° íŽëìí í늬ì ìžë šëšâì ë©ìëŠ¬ê° ëšì ììµëë€. âìì í ë²ìŽëë ìŒâì ê²°ìœ ìë ì ìŽì£ .
What will your industry look like in 20 years time, or 100?
볞ìžì ì°ì ìŽ 20ë ë€, í¹ì 100ë ë€ìë ìŽë€ 몚ìµìŒê¹ì?
I'm an optimist. People will always want to seduce, and perfume is the salt and pepper of that. It would be boring if everything was on screen, all image, no smell. So I think this lasts. As to perfume itself — there are too many niche artisanal houses, too many sell bullshit. We're getting into difficult economic times, and that's going to take care of it. Only the better, more relevant ones will stay. Bigger picture: rules and regulations are evolving. There are many raw materials we're no longer allowed to use, sometimes for sustainability, sometimes for allergies. The ingredients in fragrances will evolve. Today we see the premise of that with biotech kicking in. We're an ingredient-dependent business, so much so that perfume became interesting when chemicals got in at the end of the 19th century. Our industry will become even more interesting because of biotech. The colours of the rainbow will be different. Perfumery will evolve.
ì ë âëêŽë¡ ìâì ëë€. ì¬ëë€ì ë âì í¹(seduce)âíê³ ì í ê²ìŽê³ , í¥ìë ê·ž ì í¹ì âìêžê³Œ íì¶(salt and pepper)âì ëë€. 몚ë ê²ìŽ âí멎(screen) ììì â ìŽë¯žì§ë¡ë§ â ì§íëê³ , í¥ìŽ ìë ìžê³âë ë묎 ì§ë£ší ê²ì ëë€. ê·žëì í¥ìë âì§ìë ê²âìŽëŒê³ ëŽ ëë€. í¥ì ì첎ì ëíŽìë â âëì¹ ìí°ì¥ íì°ì€ê° ë묎 ë§ê³ , ê·žì€ ë묎 ë§ì ê³³ìŽ íì늬(bullshit)륌 íê³ ìë€âê³ ëŽ ëë€. ì°ëЬë â겜ì ì ìŒë¡ ìŽë €ìŽ ìêž°âë¡ ì§ì íê³ ìê³ , ê·ž ìêž°ê° âì 늬 ìì âì íŽ ì€ ê²ì ëë€ â âë ëì, ë ì믞 ìë ê³³ë€âë§ ìŽìëšê² ë ê²ëë€. ë í° ê·žëŠŒììë âê·ì âê° ì§ííê³ ììµëë€. âì§ìê°ë¥ì±âìŽë âìë¬ì§â륌 ìŽì ë¡ ë ìŽì ì¬ì©í ì ìë ìë£ë€ìŽ ë§ìì§ê³ ìê³ , í¥ìì ë€ìŽê°ë ìë£ ìì²Žê° ì§íí ê²ì ëë€. ê·ž ì§íì âì ì¡°(premise)â륌 ì°ëЬë ìŽë¯ž âë°ìŽì€í í¬(biotech)âì ë¶ììì ë³Žê³ ììµëë€. í¥ìë âìë£ ì졎ëê° ë§€ì° ëì ë¹ìŠëì€âì ëë€ â ê·žë êž°ì 19ìžêž° ë§ âí©ì± íí묌ì§ìŽ ëì ë ìê°â í¥ìê° âí¥ë¯žë¡ìì§êž° ììíì£ â. ì°ëЬ ì°ì ì ë°ìŽì€í í¬ ëë¶ì âíšì¬ ë í¥ë¯žë¡ìì§ ê²âì ëë€. â묎ì§ê°ì ìê¹âìŽ ë°ë ê²ì ëë€. í¥ìë ì§íí ê²ì ëë€.